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From: mclaren Subject: William Sethares' request for info... -- In Topic 3 of Tuning Digest 684, 6 April 1996, William Sethares requested a body of musical literature which would sound particularly godawful if Pythagorean 3rds were substituted in place of the "usual" 12-TET thirds. IMHO, the body of musical literature most clearly illustrating this effect is the keyboard music written for meantone tuning. Tudor music of England composed between 1520 and 1620 shows this property of Pythagorean thirds with particular clarity. Compositions like William Byrd's "The Carman's Whistle," when played with an organ timbre in Pythagorean tuning, sound remarkably bad ( to these old ears). (Incidentally, the English virginal music of this period is one of the great undiscovered bodies of keyboard masterworks in the European canon.) The reason why these compositions sound so icky of keyboard masterworks in the European canon.) The reason why these compositions sound so icky when played in Pythagorean is that Byrd, Bull, Gibbons, Ferrabosco, Tomkins and the rest of the 16-century English Tudor composers used meantone tuning. Their virginals and their foot-pump reed chamber organs boasted long chains of pure just major 3rds along with considerably tempered fifths; thus, Byrd's compositions generally sound painful on modern pianos tuned to the usual Railsback-stretch 12-TET. Byrd, Bull, Gibbons et al. favored long passages of eighth- and sixteenth-note major third 5/4s arabsequed around, over and underneath a much slower cantus firmus. While this style of composition clearly shows the influence of vocal music from Dunstable's time, it even more clearly illustrates the adventurous nature of the Tudor composers-- because these strings of 5/4s were a new resource in meantone virginal tuning. They let the composers because these strings of 5/4s were a new resource in meantone virginal tuning. They let the composers of that period show off the extraordinary sweetness of just thirds on the harmonic-series timbres of the English viriginal and chamber pump organ. Retuning these just 5/4s to Pythagorean goes just as about as far as possible in violating the composers' original intentions. It sounds godawful--but does not, of course, prove that Pythagorean thirds are wretchedly dissonant intervals. Rather, this perverse exercise demonstrates only that the intonation in which a piece of music was historically composed is as much a part of a truly musical performance as is technical skill on a pianist's part, knowledge of the ornaments typical to a period, understanding of figured bass conventions, etc., etc. Retuning Bach's chorales to Pythagorean would likely produce less grating results. The evidence appears to indicate that Bach used one of the circulating irregular produce less grating results. The evidence appears to indicate that Bach used one of the circulating irregular temperaments rather than straight meantone; thus fewer of Bach's major thirds were tuned to 5/4 vs. almost all just major thirds in music of the English Tudor composers. (This is primarily due to the fact that Tudor composers didn't need to modulate nearly as much or as often as did Bach.) The advantage of the Kirnberger/Werckmeister intonations is less the superb sweetness of their major thirds on a harmonic-series instrument than the intonation's ability to distribute usable triads over many more keys and thus allow much wider modulation than did classic 1/3-comma or 1/4-comma meantone. By way of comparison, Don Hall has calculated that 1/4-comma meantone has 14 awful-sounding keys and 10 very smooth keys; Werckmeister II has 14 reasonably good-sounding keys, 10 dubious-sounding keys, but no truly godawful ones. (This is due to the "wolf" in 1/4-comma meantone-- which arises ONLY when you limit meantone to 12 pitches. ones. (This is due to the "wolf" in 1/4-comma meantone-- which arises ONLY when you limit meantone to 12 pitches. In a gamut of 27 pitches, as A. J. Ellis pointed out in Helmholtz's "Sensations of Tone" on page 452, if memory serves, 1/4-comma meantone would produce *no* godawful- sounding keys and *no* "wolf" fifths in 18 of the 24 possible major and minor keys.) Alas, to uncover the facts of historical intonation, a student is FORCED to burrow into the library stacks for hi/rself. Until you read the original texts of the original authors of the period, it isn't at all obvious that 12-TET piano performances of Renaissance keyboard compositions are about as intonationally and musically accurate to the composers' intentions as performing Beethoven's fifth with a Balinese gamelan. --mclaren